John Newman A.S.K.'93 Intelligence Community and Defectors Panel

Intelligence Community and Defectors Panel

Tape two

            I’m very pleased to be here to talk about this, as I tell some friends of mine this is really a loss of virginity for me in as much as I venture outside of the safety box that I have been in for the last couple of years.  I was tempted by FRONTLINE, really, to get into this area.  I did box myself off from the rest of the project much the way I did when I worked with Oliver Stone on "JFK," I did not know what Oliver was doing really in other areas and I did that because I didn’t want to be influenced in any way.  As it turns out it was a really neat thing that happened which is that the name I turned up in the files had already been mentioned by Don Deneselya the fellow who appeared in shadows on FRONTLINE.  In case you haven’t seen it I’ll mention it again if it seems a bit cryptic to you. 

            In any event, let me begin by asking what was the nature of Lee Harvey Oswald’s interest in Russia?  Does it change or did it change at any time?  Do we know when if it did, and what was the nature and the extent of the agency’s, that would be the CIA’s interest in Lee Harvey Oswald?  Did it ever change?  Do we know anything about that?  How has the public and Congress been informed about these matters?  Have we been told the truth?  Are we getting access to the truth now?  And most of all, what’s in these files?  Is this working?

            I made reference a little bit earlier this morning to something I had put in the record, oh, over a year and a half ago at an oversight hearing not dissimilar to the one conducted on Wednesday, it’s an internal CIA memorandum dated 27 April, 1979, it’s a little bit redacted so we don’t really know who, who made this memo, but it’s all about G. Robert Blakey and his HSCA staff members and it talks about categories of material to be sequestered, and that word “sequestered” comes up when you go over to the archives cause there are really two sorts of CIA files over there, one is the, what they call the 201 file on Oswald, then the rest of it is called “the sequestered files” and that’s where this word comes from and that would really mean all the information that was either provided to, or generated, or classified and categorized as a result of the House Select Committee investigation, and I just wanted to point out to you a couple of sentences in this memorandum, one is referring to the 201 file in the CIA on Lee Harvey Oswald and the sentence in here says that this material, the 201 file on Lee Harvey Oswald which fills up two four drawer safes, and I want to make a distinction about this, because if I were the CIA Director, or you were, and you said, “Hey, Jim bring me the 201 file on Oswald they wouldn’t roll it down the hall on a dolly with two safes on it, there would be a small manila folder that would be plopped on your desk, maybe five, six or seven pages, the crème de la crème that would have been skimmed from all of those drawers and drawers full of material would be in this little manila folder, so that’s a 201 file in one sense, but this, as researchers we’ve come to know Lee Harvey Oswald’s 201 file as these safes and safes full of stuff.  Anyway, the sentence goes on, “Oswald’s 201 file was not completely reviewed by HSCA staff members.”  And then one other sentence, “Files not reviewed by HSCA staff members fill almost four, four drawer safes,”  and an inventory of that was made by the CIA.  So that’s quite a lot of material.  And I’ve often seen Blakey say or claim that he’s seen everything, and of course, Gerald Posner’s claim that he hasn’t had a chance to go through them but that doesn’t matter cause he’s talked to Blakey and Blakey’s seen everything, doesn’t really do very much for me either.

            So we haven’t seen everything until the passage of this law and happily one of the areas where the release has been most significant is the CIA, in fact as I’ve been doing my work in these files Director Woolsey at a couple of points has changed his mind. About a month ago he announced when testifying before Congress that documents that he had decided only 30 days prior to that announcement to keep secret would in fact be released.  And as we speak today, in fact yesterday, or the day before, whenever it was now I can’t remember with all of the airlines strikes and all, it was Wednesday, that’s right, the last 1700 pages of Oswald’s 201 file were in fact showing up in the archives.  So, we are now told that it is all there minus 20 pages, that would not include things that are redacted or have pieces missing.  There are 35 rolls of microfilm that have some 120,000 pages of material that has not been released.  And there are some other materials that the agency has that they call “third agency materials,”  this would be materials for example that, Peter, probably, Army files, Navy files, Air Force files, that they are waiting the other agencies to give clearance for so we really have not seen any of that material released at all.

            What I’m going to talk about right now is based upon what the CIA has released

and it is primarily it’s own records, and amazingly quite a bit of FBI material, and Secret Service material, and what’s interesting about this material are the cover sheets. Peter, can I have... I’m going to show you a couple of slides of cover sheets but these are much better.  This is a cover sheet, and although you can’t see what’s on it in any detail from where you are all of this writing down this column here is actually offices inside the CIA that handled this particular file that was attached to this, and these are the initials of the people in each office who signed for it.  And then when you read the files you often see little marginalia, little handwriting.  And this is wonderful.  The House Select Committee saw none of these cover sheets.  And for the first time we have the routing slips and the marginalia, to me which are the road maps into the minds of the people who handled Lee Harvey Oswald’s files inside the CIA and they are terrifically enlightening.

            Before I do that I just thought I would show you very briefly just a couple of slides from these files to give you a feel or a sense of what they are.  If we could just turn the lights down and I’ll show you, just a couple.

            That’s actually the cover, these boxes have the actually old cardboard, the 201 files in them, that’s what it looks like.

            This is a document that’s very interesting, and if I have time I’ll return to it later, I call it the Massdam document.  (Still a lot of black ink.  Unfortunately, he did not return to explain why it’s interesting.) Massdam being the name of the boat that Lee Harvey Oswald and his family travelled back to the United States on.  It turns out it’s a lot more than that.  This is a cover sheet.  It’s from an agency, an agency field office of some sort which is blacked out here.  It has three attachments, A, B, and C. And A is about the Massdam itself.  B and C, the descriptions of the attachments are totally redacted.  This is A. Again about the Massdam, and there’s this neat little indicator up here, ZR, with a slash mark through it.  And these files are full of these little indicators, and ZR is in a red ball point pen and the slash mark would be in bright orange or yellow crayon through it, so it lights up like a Christmas tree.  And then here’s Lee Harvey Oswald 201 file number as well.  And I’ll get back to that later what all of these things mean.  Of course, ZR is interesting for those of you who know about ZR/Rifle, and so on.  But this is not associated with ZR/rifle and it took me almost two to three months to crack what these indicators really mean.

            Here is attachment B (audience starts laughing) and I was a little disappointed in the CIA’s new openness when I saw this.

            And this (bigger laughter) is attachment C (a totally blacked out page), and some more of attachment C. These are the new releases.  I actually do have some very intriguing information that I found only two days ago on Wednesday before I testified about this document and I’ll return to it later. 

            This is an example of what the types of photographs of Lee Harvey Oswald, which of course we not Lee Harvey Oswald looked like before the release, and now you have much better photographs.  They are not cropped anymore.  They are wonderful. 

            (Another piece of paper, a good paragraph blacked out)  This again is an indicator.  It’s a little bit too small for you to see probably, instead of a ZR there is an FR, and that’s Castro here, Castro is filed in here as an FR, and I will explain that later.  Again, the slash marks.

            This is a cover sheet I was holding one up a minute ago, here would be offices listed.  In fact, I should have a better one here.

            Oh, here is a file, again, designators, here is a third one, this one is an H, this is an H over Lee Harvey Oswald, and over Bringuier, and in fact we think these were placed here prior to 22 November, 1963 and there’s some significance to that, again I’ll return to that later.

            This is one of the very first FBI documents that ended up in Lee Harvey Oswald’s file.  It pre-dates the existence of a 201 file.  And the designator again was an H. 

            Well, in fact while it’s up here I might as well go ahead and explain this instead of being cryptic about it anymore.  These designator’s these ZR’s, these H's, these FR's, are part of an internal classification system whereby; as I’ve said you have safes and safes, boatloads full of documents on individuals in some cases, it’s certainly so in Lee Harvey Oswald’s [case], what this is doing here is this is telling somebody, a clerk, a records entrance person of some sort, to abstract certain information, in this case what’s underlined in the red ballpoint pen again, that’s why I had this photographed so you could see the color here, you can go to the archives and see these originals, what’s underlined here is to be abstracted and put into a computer database of some sort.  The ZR as it turns out would signify that the information here, sometimes instead of being underlined it has a greater than sign before, right here, and then one right at the end, [it] would be the same thing as underlining it, to take that information and put it in under a 201 file number, and the ZR is the most restrictive classifier.

             If there was a ZR on this it would require that information to be put into only the 201 held at headquarters, and not at any other place.

            The H allows for a broader holding of that information, including field offices, so that the ZR indicator would be the most restrictive, and would probably be that little manila folder that would be plopped on the director’s desk if he asked for the headquarters 201 on somebody.  And in the case of Lee Harvey Oswald I will tell you that James Angleton got control of the agency’s investigation right after the assassination and therefore what information was passed over to the Warren Commission on Lee Harvey Oswald.

            I went through all of those files, and myself went through and took out, recreated, reconstructed, in my own computer everything that had been marked with a ZR indicator so that I could see what it looked like and it reads like a roadmap to the KGB and Cuba.  In other words, if one were to read just the information that was  abstracted and indexed under the ZR indicator one would have reason to believe, or could be very worried that Lee Harvey Oswald might have shot John Kennedy in the employ of the Soviet Union. 

            Whether or not Angleton really believed that is another question.  We can debate that.  We know he was a very paranoid man, but to read that ZR file would give one reason to suspect that Oswald may have been working for the Russians.  Also, that Angleton would have been doing this is significant because he was very concerned about a mole, and I will return to that later.

            Here’s more, there’s Marina Oswald’s 201 file number, are you here Marina, I don’t believe I’ve shown Marina her 201 number yet, and she was a ZR, she has a ZR file.

            This is another cover sheet this here would be liaison office.  This over here is the SAS, the Special Affairs Staff, all your dirty tricks guys would be under here, the William Harvey staff would be under here.  This is in fact a file on Oswald.  SAS counterintelligence, and here’s the fellow’s name Horn (?) who signed for this file on 15 November, 1963.

            Here’s another one.  Let’s see I have one more here.  Here is making sure that the abstracter does not, this would be a thick report probably an FBI report of several hundred pages, and the person who put together this cover sheet is saying, look don’t forget to go to page whatever this is I can’t read it from here, probably page 490, whatever, and pick up the ZRed information there, and also an H reference here.  That’s what that is and that’s what a cover sheet looks like.

            Now I am going to take you into this the sort of way I went into it rather than chronologically because I think it might be helpful and also because this first piece is actually what made it into the FRONTLINE documentary, not everything did.  Well, the work I did for FRONTLINE was late in the game. It didn’t begin until this summer they had already done a lot of their work and were pretty sure where they were going.  I hadn’t been in these files more than a week when one day I turned, I had got a piece of paper, and in fact it was from a unit called the CI/SIG, it stands for counterintelligence special investigations group, and that was under James Angleton, and Peter [Dale Scott] will talk about that more shortly, and Birch D. O’Neil, his signature block was at the bottom, he was the Chief of the CI/SIG, and in the upper right hand corner was some writing, some handwriting, and I couldn’t read it, until I turned it over, and looked at it into the light, it had been burned into the back of this, probably by a Xerox machine, it had come through, it had bleed through, so that when you turned it around you could read it and it clearly says “Andy Anderson OO on Oswald.”  And OO would be the office symbol for the Domestic Contact Division and what this marginalia means is that Andy Anderson was the DCD contact for Lee Harvey Oswald.  What I did not know at that time was that Don Deneselya, the man who had told the House Select Committee in 1978 that he had read a debrief, he did not mention Oswald’s name at the time, but he said it was a Marine defector, living in Minsk, working in a radio factory, who had a family. And the odds of that being anybody other than Lee Harvey Oswald would be astronomical.  The debrief he read had a lot of; it was routine, it had a lot of information about the radio plant that Oswald worked in at Minsk.  What I did not know was that Don Denselya had already told FRONTLINE last March that the name who had signed off on this debriefed report was one Anderson.

            So it was significant to have an eyewitness to the debrief and then to have a document turn up with the same name on it now.  Don Deneselya was not believed by the House Select Committee because the agency has always denied having done a debrief.  He was discredited after that.  He has been very reticent to discuss it with anyone ever since and I’ll never forget the look on his face the night I showed him the document.  I did not know anything about Anderson at that point, but he looked and saw this “Andy Anderson OO on Oswald” and his whole complexion changed.  He felt vindicated, and probably because of that got the courage up to go on FRONTLINE in shadows and tell his story.

            Now there’s nothing conspiratorial about the fact that the agency debriefed Oswald when he came back.  In fact, I was looking at a document over here Mark [Zaid] has about another Marine they debriefed and he just went, and that was actually in the spring of '61, they debriefed him in Scandinavia, we have the record, or the recording, the document that it did happen, he was just seeing relatives.

            They should have debriefed Oswald.  It was their job.  It was routine.

            What is significant is that the agency has lied about it. 

            Now, the agency, their explanation was we did not debrief this man because we were not interested in him

            That’s a lie.

            The documents I’ve seen, some of the ones I’ve shown demonstrate a hell of an interest in Oswald.  In fact, there is a memo, we call it the TBC memo, because the initials at the bottom are TBC, the person who wrote it, he was chief of a branch called SR/6.  SR, Soviet Russia, 6, 6 branch, was under the Soviet Russia division inside the Directorate of Plans.  This particular memo states categorically that the CIA had what they called an operational interest in Lee Harvey Oswald.  It’s in plain English.  Besides that memo, you can look at the people who are on these cover sheets and establish a terrific level of interest in Oswald, I’ll guess I’ll get back to that in a minute because I want to share who they are with you, but the agency does not concoct this lie of, “we are not interested”, or “we were not interested in Lee Harvey Oswald” to cover up, to cover up a routine debrief, that was not the problem.

            The reason the agency claimed it was not interested in Oswald was to cover up something far more troubling as it turns out.  And the answer to what that is has really been staring us in the face all along, and that is when Lee Harvey Oswald who worked at a CIA secret base in Atsugi, Japan left the Marines, went to Moscow announced his defection along with his intention to commit espionage the CIA failed to launch a counterintelligence investigation of Lee Harvey Oswald.

            Now that is totally unsatisfactory.

            There is no wiggle room on this.  If it had only been that Oswald had defected, perhaps, even then it doesn’t make sense because when they do open this counterintelligence file on Oswald at the end of 1960 they do it simply on the basis of the defection, not on the basis of his intent to commit espionage, that is left out of the little report that goes back and forth between State Dept and CIA.

            Now, no one today that you will talk to in the CIA will try and maintain this fiction anymore, of not being interested in Oswald, and that’s the reason, they didn’t do their job.  The House Select Committee you will be interested in knowing was very disturbed about this question, and probed the CIA vigorously, put several people under oath, but unsuccessful in getting an answer as to why the agency had failed to open a 201 file on Oswald, for fourteen months.  For fourteen months the CIA  apparently is asleep at the switch.  That’s their job [to have opened a 201 file immediately.]  So, this is a problem for them analytically.  What the hell’s going on?

            Today I was asked, not today, but today in the context of the last several weeks as I began to speak with agency officials about this problem as well as several former employees, I was asked if I’ve ever considered “The Murphy Factor,” you know, just the general things do screw up from time to time.  My answer is yes, sure, and I could accept that.  Let me explain how that would work.  We have a record, we know from House Select Committee files that our embassy in Moscow reported not only that he was defecting but that he was intending to give up all of his secrets through channels back to Washington, and the Navy liaison officer over there reported the same thing through ONI channels. And we know that both of those messages went to the CIA within 24 hours. Okay, there’s a record of those messages actually showing up.  So, it would have to go something like this, and this is totally made up, but, they arrive in the office of security, we know that much, and somebody was getting a cup of coffee and they put the pieces on a table and somebody accidently pumped them into the trash can, and therefore there was no investigation launched, or [they] were misfiled, somebody put them in the wrong folder and put that folder in the wrong drawer, who knows?

            I can accept “Murphy’s Law,” on occasion.  The problem I’m having is that I keep bumping into Mr. Murphy every time I go around the corner.  For example, the FBI did not fail to launch a counterintelligence investigation of Oswald.  It did in the spring of 1960 after contact with Oswald had been lost by the embassy.  They [the embassy] lose contact with him, the last cable is dated around 8  March 1960.  And the FBI starts door stopping Marguerite, Oswald’s mother, and his brother, and they write up all the information and they send it over to the CIA.  And we have these materials.  And the FBI materials go straight over to the Soviet Russia division because we have the cover sheet, and the first place it goes, the first stop it makes is Soviet Russia, Counter espionage branch, properly so.  This does not cause the agency to launch an investigation into Lee Harvey Oswald still.

            So, Mr. Murphy is alive and healthy, again.  And this is the problem, you see, that you have.  There are other files we have run across, “soft files,” meaning that they weren’t through 201 files, they were just files kept in people’s drawers.

            There was an HT/LINGUAL file on Oswald at this point.  This is the mail intercept program.  They were opening mail. And there was a number of pieces of paper that had been collected on Oswald in this file.

            There was an MS file, an Office of Security file, there were lots of files on Lee Harvey Oswald, not the one, however, that should have been, and that would have been a 201 file, that would have marked him as not benign, that would have marked him as somebody that needed to be investigated because he was an intelligence, or counterintelligence, or espionage or intelligence threat. 

            Who was watching Lee Harvey Oswald in the CIA?  From the very beginning it’s an interesting set of characters who handled his files and watched them.  In fact, during the entire time that he’s in the Soviet Union and after his return up to the time of his death there are really three areas in the DP, when I say the DDP that’s the directorate of plans, the sort of dark side of the house as opposed to the straight intelligence analysis side of the house, and that is, those two broad functional areas still describe the CIA today.  Directorate of Operations is the name today, it used to be the Directorate of Plans then.

            There are really three areas that watched Oswald and handled his files.  The first is the Soviet Russia division.  That would make sense.  And the second, is the CI/SIG, Angelton’s Mole Hunting unit.  There are some records keeping types that show up on those routing sheets, but for the most part it’s the Soviet Russia division and CI/SIG until 1963.

            In September of 1963 we have a brand new group of people who begin to watch Oswald, and you saw a cover sheet with the SAS on it, the Special Affairs Staff shows up in September of 1963, and will be all over his files up until the time of the Kennedy assassination.

            Within the SR division it’s very interesting, which branches within SR are watching Oswald, and there are really three branches that show up all over these routing sheets, and the first is SR/6.  And in fact, I should hasten to add that the memorandum that I mentioned before that actually says, “We have an operational interest in Lee Harvey Oswald,” was written by the chief of SR/6.  It was written three days after the assassination.  It’s a memo for record after Kennedy was dead, and Lee Harvey Oswald was dead the chief of SR/6 sat down to document, for internal purposes, that he had requested the laying on of interviews with Lee Harvey Oswald in the summer of 1962 because they had an operational interest in him.  SR/6 had the job among other things, they had several little things they did, the most interesting I find is the Soviet realities program, Soviet realities means legend painters.  What they did was to collect information and even pieces of physical evidence, it could be matchbooks, pieces of paper, letters, postcards, anything that was authentic Russian to paint a legend for a sleeper agent that would be posted inside the Soviet Union.

            So, anyone who would come back from the Soviet Union would be potentially useful to SR/6 because they could build up information to put together, to make a story or a legend for a person.  This was SR/6. SR/6 is the element in the CIA that shows up most often on Oswald files. 

            And there were two more branches in the Soviet Russia division that were extremely interested in Lee Harvey Oswald.  And the first is SR/9.  SR/9 was the branch which ran agents inside Russia from Moscow, dead drops and this sort of thing.  When I talk with some of the former employees of the Soviet Russia division they indicated to me they thought it unlikely that Oswald would have been run in this manner because he was not of a high enough level.  This sort of thing would have been reserved for a very big catch, a politburo member, maybe a senior army officer, but certainly not Lee Harvey Oswald.  Nonetheless, SR/9 shows up as people handling his files.

            The third is SR/10.  SR/10 is what they call legal travelers.  And this would have been running agents inside the Soviet Union from Washington, or from outside of the Soviet Union.  They would have no direct contact as in a dead drop kind of thing.  They would have to use their mails to communicate with their agents.  And the two principle means of doing that at the time were secret writing and microdots.  And of course this would be interesting to those of you who are interested in, there is the word microdot written in one of Oswald’s, not his diary, I guess in one of his notebooks.

            So if in fact Lee Harvey Oswald had a function, was an agent of some sort and was not being run from SR/9 he would have been run from SR/10 through the mails using microdots or secret writing.  Notice I say “if”.

            So, these were the three areas of the Soviet Russia division, those responsible for developing legends for sleeper agents, and those running agents from Moscow, and running agents from Washington inside the Soviet Union; Molehunters, and of course that’s interesting because a mole would be someone who was working either with our organization, maybe an employee or even a contract person, but would have contact with the agency and therefore the threat of having penetrated the agency.  So, molehunters, agent handlers, agent legend painters, these are very interesting sort of people to be watching the files of Lee Harvey Oswald.

            As I like to say, this doesn’t prove anything.  It does not prove definitely that Oswald had an intelligence function, but these are the right sort of branches, they are not watching economic information in South Africa.

            In fact the other thing I should mention here is a negative factor.  There wasn’t anything I’ve found so far in these files, and I haven’t seen the 1,700 pages that just went over there last week, but up to that time I haven’t seen anything that indicated that Lee Harvey Oswald was a regular type of agent.  That there was knowledge about him having carried out normal agent responsibilities.  So, if in fact he had some sort of function it would have to be, I would think, it would have to be some very closely held operation, as in a vest pocket operation, or some individual, or a couple of individuals were behind, if in fact that were so.  And that would be consistent, more consistent I think with what we see in these files today, if there were any association at all.

            And in fact, a vest pocket operation would be illegal.  It would not be normal.  It would be somebody doing something wrong.  It would have to be somebody at a high level in order to be able to mask what they were doing and to be able to stop, for example a 201 investigation from being launched.

            If that were true it would move one to ask the question about communications.  How would you communicate with Lee Harvey Oswald?  There are a number of things, a number of possibilities.  And actually there are some proprietary matters here, there is ongoing research, so I will say, I will just say this, there is hard evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald was receiving information from outside of the Soviet Union while he was “lost” during the period of time when no one outside of Russia knew where he was.  He falls off the chart in March of 1960 we do not know where he is officially until February 1961, but there is hard evidence both on film in interviews, physical evidence that he was receiving packages from someone outside of the Soviet Union.  And I’ll leave that where it is.

            Also, there’s an intriguing thing, and I’d like to hear perhaps from Oleg Nechiporenko later on this, this trail did not pan out but we became aware at some point that the Jewish underground was very active in Minsk.  The agency had a special relationship with the Telaviv station and that perhaps it may have been possible way to get to him might have been through the Jewish underground, say perhaps, Zeger (?) or somebody else and I wondered maybe you could tell us if you found out or know anything about this.  But even though we looked into this we could find nothing. 

            Um, I don’t have time to talk about the Massdam piece, so let me just, I talked about Angleton and the ZR business.  Okay, let me just wrap it up by noting something.  I’ve been an advocate for sometime for those who would look into these matters that you need to pull together sort of overlays from different agencies, from different players if you want to bring together an aggregate manner something that would reflect a conspiracy, for example, and whatever conspiracy theory you have, for example if politics were involved, or policy were involved you would have to show that planning for the movements and management of Lee Harvey Oswald somehow intersected with planning for whatever political motive was involved here. And I want to give you an example of how this might work, certainly not in as a dramatic way as a political assassination, but it occurred to me to ask the following question about the structure of Oswald’s stay in the Soviet Union.  And indeed there is a structure.  I’ve already mentioned the business about him being lost we don’t know where he is, that is very important to understand that, if one were to talk about communication, but there’s also this structure, Oswald goes over there for a reason, then he changes his mind to come back home, I mean that’s a structural aspect.  When does he change his mind?  In fact, I think you will find that it’s about the time that he decides to come back to the United States that he decides to get married, a very important point.  It’s roughly in late November or early December of 1960.  We don’t find out about it, the embassy doesn’t, until February because the KGB intercepted his first letter and never gave it to the embassy.  He has to write again and they don’t get notice that he wants to come back until February.  But in fact this thought is in his mind as early as December, if not late November I would argue, and that’s from his perspective. From the agency’s perspective there is also a structure and that’s the most fundamental one, the one I’ve been driving at for the last hour, and that is whether he is looked upon as a benign individual or as a threat, and in fact the sea change occurs in November of 1960.  That’s when they finally open a 201 file on him.  And I could go on there are other coincidences, and maybe if you’re interested I could mention one or two in the Q and A, but if you lay that information out in an overlay you will see that there is a sea change in Oswald in what he wants to do, and the same change ocurrs in the agency's view of him, in November of 1960.  And if one were interested in politics, and in linking politics up to Lee Harvey Oswald there is a political event, a major political event which does ocurr in November 1960 and that would be the election of John Kennedy.  And I just say that, no to be provocative in any sense, but simply as an example of where you can go analyticaly when you begin to pay attention to the structure of things.